I'm right here if you have any questions beyond the diagrams,

Zio

To whoever is considering this modification,
Over the years I have been involved in flow dynamics and aerodynamics, and I feel that this modification could actually cause long term heat related problems. This was discussed to some length on the scionlife forums.  The poster did not properly test this modification, and does not understand flow dynamics.  There is a very real possibility of a what is termed "turbulant blockage" where a
non-laminar airflow can actually block air from going through a screened surface such as a radiator.  The placement of the modification holes could disturb the laminar flow over the air deflector in front of the radiator, causing turbulant blockage.  Linear airflow is much more important in a cooling environment than mass turbulent air, which can create a pressure blockage through a grid (radiator) which can actually decrease airflow.

On the scionlife forums, the original poster refused to listen to the opinions of those that study and work with flow dynamics about what issues can occur without proper testing, and instead resorted to name calling and attempting to belittle those that tried to help and warn others of possible problems with this modification.  It got bad enough that threads were locked, messages deleted and the original poster was made to stop trying to sell or link to his ebay ad on scionlife's forums, and the moderators I spoke to told me the threads where closed because of the designers attitude toward other SL members, and because of issues with selling a commercial product in the personal classifieds without proper authorization. 

After repeatedly wanting to see test data the original poster resorted to more name calling , "I don't need to test it", "I work on heat exchangers", "I'm smarter than all of you", and "I just KNOW this works", "I don't need a wind tunnel, my foot is my wind tunnel", and of course, "I'M A SCIENTIST!!!!", and even went as far as manipulating a photo (wrongly, I might add) of airflow to make it look like his idea is pure science, which it isn't, it's a guess that could go terribly wrong, and actually his photo showed how proper laminar flow looks, without turbulance issues, which this mod could actually create.  Sir, if you are truly a scientist, please do the proper testing in a scientific manner, not, "it doesn't smell anymore".  My car had a smell in the first few thousand miles, then went away as well, that the smell went away on your car at the time of your mod is not a "scientific" determination.

I do not factually know 100% that this will cause problems, as I have not tested this mod myself, but many years of real world experience has shown that disrupting a laminar flow,especially to a cooling grid, can be very problematic.  Again, I have not tested this mod, I do have the equipment, and have run data on a stock config and have found the flow to and through the radiator and engine compartment to be more than ample on the stock configuration, but I won't be cutting holes in my bumper to test this modification, especially since the "blocking design" of the bumper indicates through my measurements, that it does indeed direct flow in a laminar position, which is a good thing.

I would like to see flow tests done by the designer after his modification, but on the other forums, he refused to bother.  Cutting a bigger hole is rarely a proper solution.  The designer does not know flow dynamics to the necessary levels to make a modification such as this, and it is irresponsible to NOT properly test it when you are trying to get others to do it, and/or buy a product.

I simply want to let you know that, again, there is the POSSIBILITY of a very damaging airflow issue and I would hate to see others try an untested product based on this individuals word, and end up doing permanent damage to their vehicle, that certainly would not be covered under warranty due to this modification.

A few notes regarding THIS thread,
The moderators on SL "squashed" your threads because of your attitude, and unwillingness to listen to others, your knowing the workings of heat exchangers does not make you an expert in flow dynamics.

Dirt on the radiator is NOT by any means any indicator of airflow patterns, it is a strike zone of matter that is heavier than air.  The lower half of the radiator is much closer to the road, causing a natural increase of road grime.

The holes in the upper grill are not vortex generators, nor do they act like vortex generators.  Vortex generators are parallel airflow deflectors that create a flow vortex to increase drag or lift, depending on the application, on an airfoil.  I have designed numerous vortex generators that are currently being used commercialy, privately and by the military, don't dig up phrases off the internet and throw them around like you know what you are talking about and to make yourself sound smart.

You have the POTENTIAL of 38.8 cubic feet hitting the radiator per second, not 38.8 cubic feet THROUGH the radiator.
Most current automotive radiators only allow ~40CFS maximum due to their cross sections, and this can not be increased without considerable compression that can not be achieved at velocities that a car is capable of, this being based on a 350 square inch radiator , any POTENTIAL increase over and above is nothing more than turbulence and drag, which is why you see so many cars on the road with rather small intake cross sections, modern vehicles are much more efficient in their cooling systems than even 10 years ago, and no longer need a massive multi-core radiator to keep them cool.

I have NO financial or personal reasons for this post, nothing at all to gain ,and no I am not a "hater", as was constantly being thrown around on that other forum.  I am simply trying to let people know of the possible problems this COULD cause without being properly tested, and the onus is on the designer to be RESPONSIBLE and PROPERLY test this to be ABSOLUTELY certain that no harm will be done to other peoples cars.
I have said my piece and will not further respond to this thread, unless the original poster decides to do what a real scientist would do and run real tests with proper equipment and wishes to compare test data.

To the moderator I spoke to, I hope this falls within the realm of discovery and hope I have not been abusive in my attempt to clarify.

Thank you for your time.
Kiiski

Thank you for voicing your concerns Kiiski



This applies to everyone:
Please keep discussion mature and on topic. No abusive or childish behavior of any kind will be tolerated. That is all.

quote author=Kiiski

" The placement of the modification holes could disturb the laminar flow over the air deflector in front of the radiator, causing turbulant blockage.  Linear airflow is much more important in a cooling environment than mass turbulent air, which can create a pressure blockage through a grid (radiator) which can actually decrease airflow."

lol, yes it does disrupt the outer laminar flow as defined as "a smooth flow over a surface of an airfoil" this is how the flow would normally bypass the radiator as I explained earlier, this is a problem with the original design of the air-dam. The ZIO MOD puts a hole right in the middle of that flow allowing it through to the engine bay. My grill acts like little scoops which deflect the air in, directing it like little vanes to put the flow against the radiator and through it.

If you had performed the mod and taken before and after temp readings from multiple points you would have a leg to stand on, but you didn't and you don't, so why do you spout on about this and that? You would have seen the engine bay temp drop not rise as long as you didn't place your sensors in the hottest calculated airflow from the hottest surfaces, even these would be lessened. Turbulent flow blockage has not been proven in this case, as more heat has been exiting the engine bay at an accelerated rate not the engine bay getting hotter as you tried to state.


quote author=Kiiski

"I would like to see flow tests done by the designer after his modification, but on the other forums, he refused to bother.  Cutting a bigger hole is rarely a proper solution.  The designer does not know flow dynamics to the necessary levels to make a modification such as this, and it is irresponsible to NOT properly test it when you are trying to get others to do it, and/or buy a product."

Uh- it's kinda simple- you add more moving air through an engine bay and you get cooler temps overall. I test it every day, and I monitor it while I use it, paying less for gas every day. I say it is a success, you can scoff all you want my car costs less to operate and will last longer due to lower engine bay temps overall at usage speeds (of which 80% of mine are highway).


quote author=Kiiski

"I simply want to let you know that, again, there is the POSSIBILITY of a very damaging airflow issue and I would hate to see others try an untested product based on this individuals word, and end up doing permanent damage to their vehicle, that certainly would not be covered under warranty due to this modification."

What damage have you proven? none. Fact: plastics, rubbers, electronics & wiring last MUCH longer when cooler, Fact: cooler denser air makes for more power and gas mileage. Fact: most sensors are not covered by the scion basic warranty. It's my car too. I am a scientist trying to help others understand things at the level that I do. Fact: you are arguing that the facts I just stated don't matter to you and that everyone else should think like that. Fact: you're wrong. I don't bet on possibilities, I read the facts. maybe you should.

Fact: My "product" didn't exist until after I fixed my car with my solution.
Fact: I properly researched this simple problem until I found a simple solution that fit all sides to the puzzle.

quote author=Kiiski

"Dirt on the radiator is NOT by any means any indicator of airflow patterns, it is a strike zone of matter that is heavier than air.  The lower half of the radiator is much closer to the road, causing a natural increase of road grime."

Actually the dirt pattern matched exactly with the air flow pattern masking effect from the lower intake, whereas the upper portion of the radiator was totally unaffected by direct flow patterning from expected dirt/grime through the upper grill which appeared to be somehow blocking flow through it. After examining the angle of incidence of the front bumper deflector dam I reasoned that the cross flow of incoming air was deflecting the direct incoming air past the grill entirely this flow striking mostly on the bumper. There were no bugs in the radiator on the upper portion either. The lower condenser however looks like it needs a finer grill, due to the damage it has already suffered from incoming rocks. I will be applying the same grill material to that area as well to help protect it better.


quote author=Kiiski

"I do not factually know 100% that this will cause problems, as I have not tested this mod myself, but many years of real world experience has shown that disrupting a laminar flow,especially to a cooling grid, can be very problematic.  Again, I have not tested this mod, I do have the equipment, and have run data on a stock config and have found the flow to and through the radiator and engine compartment to be more than ample on the stock configuration, but I won't be cutting holes in my bumper to test this modification, especially since the "blocking design" of the bumper indicates through my measurements, that it does indeed direct flow in a laminar position, which is a good thing."

Please see laminar flow link: http://www.aviation-history.com/theory/lam-flow.htm

Laminar flow past the grill intake is not a good thing which is what my MOD fixes. Laminar flow across the radiator face works fine as long as the fans pull in the cool air, when they weaken in their upper service life the vehicle will run hotter more often and then will eventually fail because of the electrical fans not being able to effectively remove the hot air from the cooling system. This combined with a mostly sealed engine bay will lead to other failures of a systemic nature. If however the Zio MOD were in place then the car in question would run cooler over it's entire service life, not dependant upon the fans entirely for cooling, which would extend the end life of the vehicle considerably, as well as making the fans last longer though less active use of them through forced air current introduction. You state my MOD introduces disruptive flow- I say prove my mod reduces the amount of cooling air going through my engine bay. FACT: YOU CAN'T.

Just because you spoke to the teacher after class doesn't mean they will side with you if you are proven wrong in your comments.

Zio

Zio and Kiiski.. could you guys maybe take the beginnings of your personal attacks offline, or go to email?

I find it interesting that Zio has tried this mod, and I hope it works out for you, but I too wonder if it would actually cause more damage in the long run.

If more airflow was needed, I would think that Toyota would have desigend it into that area.

All just my humble opinion, of course, 'cause I am not an automoblie, airlfow or flow dynamics expert in any way